Atrocities on Saturday night at Versus 2

[a.vanvranken]

Hey guys, haven't posted in awhile but I felt this was important that you know this went on. I know most of you aren't from United States, but it might interest you anyway.

I was scheduled to play at this event so I was there and witnessed this horrible violation of human rights

Here's the video:

THE VIDEO
http://homepage.mac.com/apexgrin/FileSharing2.html
http://djmuteyproductions.com/fascism.mov *down for reasons unknown*
http://www.angrymobclan.com/facism.mov
http://fatbaron.com/videos.html *Torrent Files here*
http://www.utrave.org/media/fascism.mov
http://www.utrave.org/media/fascism.wmv
http://www.herbix.org/facism.wmv
http://www.vidking.com/viewvideo.php?id=615
http://www.edmplanet.com/raid/facism.mov

Here's the Threads:

http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/11330.php
http://forums.di.fm/showthread.php?t=85779&page=2
http://flyservers.com/members5/poli...tah_police.html
http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm
http://www.aymnetwork.com/Versus_II...ce_Raid_on_Rave
http://qwiki.castpost.com/
http://www.417vibe.com
http://www.luvboard.net
http://www.forums.midwestmassive.com
http://www.phocas.net
http://www.stlouisraver.com
http://www.denverforums.com

[Kassen]

Yeah, I read.

That's totally insane!
I take it you and your friends are allright and you aren't suffering from bruises or confiscated gear?

I'd like to hear your personal story. Read a few pages now and a few hours ago when I got this on a list but there's much general outrage and few personal stories.

[a.vanvranken]

no luckily we got away untouched, although we got our fair share of harassment from the soldiers/cops/thugs (whatever they were).

[Mohoyoho]

Man, that is unbelievable. It seems like the local news media (like most) is being spoon fed by the authorities.

[deknow]

i've played at (and attended) many crazy raves....i don't find this reaction suprising. and remember i say this as someone who has tried about every drug out there, and sees great value in some of these experiences.

the rave community (at least in the northeast) really is not much more than drug trafficing amongst kids. there has never been a real effort to change this (as the rave scene wouldn't exist without the drugs and the drug business), and almost all promoters (there are exceptions) are only willing to give lip service to cutting the drug dealing (like a sign at the entrance). the only time i've seen promoters act against dealers is if they are selling bad or fake drugs.

i'm all for responsible experementation, but i've been at too many events where a bunch of 15 year olds are doing wayyyy too much meth and eating 5-10 pills (e)...i've seen it time and time again, and i've never seen any activism from within the scene to change things...the closest we ever came was "dancesafe" testing pills...and that's not really helping. we need to do more from the inside.

don't get me wrong...this seems like an extreme situation (and i have no idea what was going on at the party), but it is predictable. i've "raved sober" and many others do as well, but raves are not about the music, they are about selling drugs (and although the promoter isn't always aware or part of specific transactions, the promoter knows that it is an integral part of the environment they are creating).

if you don't want your home raided by the dea, don't sell drugs out of it. if you don't want your party to get busted, don't sell drugs at it....it is really that simple. if everyone brought their own "supply" rather than having people show up to buy their "supply" at the party, then people primarily interested in dealing or buying drugs would not show up (and it might even be "about the music"). if searches only found personal ammounts on individuals, law enforcement would be very uninterested.

i can't say i blame law enforcement and concerned parents not wanting such events in their town. there is no such thing as a "taz", and anyone that throws a big, loud event with flashing lights and 1500 people where drugs are being sold on a large scale should expect to be shut down. if we want our "right to party" we have to learn how to do so without big flashing lights and loud beats advertising "buy drugs here". make raves inhospitable to those selling and buying drugs and law enforcement will loose intrest.

a couple of "funny" stories:
1. a party we were playing at (in a closed down shopping mall) was almost shut down (very close) before it began because the other member of my band tried to sneak a few beers in the back. later in the evening, i saw the headlining dj get busted pulling a bag of 500pills out of his record bag (cops had their hands on his wrists while he was still holding the bag). i was in a "lysergic" state of mind, so i walked away from this scene (it was in the dj booth). the dj was arrested and back in time for his set. he did have to come back for court appearances (he lived on the other coast) and i believe some community service.

2. another party we were playing at the promoter handed out "staff" shirts to everyone who was setting up. he then said "anyone who is going to sell drugs shouldn't wear the staff shirts"....most of them were tossed back at him.

3. another party (this one is inside the brooklyn bridge)...the promoter forgot to get 2 way radios for security...it was mayhem (i stayed by my gear most of the night). 3,000 people with no way for security to communicate with each other. i know many people that were jacked (2 large guys would come from either side and pin the arms....another person would then go through pockets and take all money, drugs, jewelery, etc).

deknow

[Kassen]

Sure, that's probably all true, but drugs aren't a reason to start throwing around military police. It only makes sense to confront people that you expect to fight back quite hard.

[deknow]

kassan....i agree, i don't think this was "justified" by any means...just predictable.

deknow

[Kassen]

Yeah, but it doesn't work at all.

I have a amature theory that this unrealistic stuff allows some of those kids to actually stay in their weird unrealistic world. I think a confronting, serious and calm talk might work a lot better then using battons v.s. glowsticks.

Oh, well.

B.T.W., unless I'm terribly mistaken you consistendly over-represent the amount of "A"'s and underrepresent the amount of "E"'s in my name. This may be a bad time to request "more E" but, erm, yeah. :¬)

[deknow]

sorry about the spelling....i hadn't noticed i was doing that, i probably won't now that i'm aware of it

...as for the extra e, you are the one in the netherlands....go get it yourself!

deknow

[mosc]

This is appalling. It violates the basic principles of the American constitution. Thanks for posting this and for your chilling personal account, a.vanvranken.

I have seen this kind of police riot before, in Berkeley in 1966. The police attacked a non-violent anti-war protest with violent enthusiasm. The police, in this case the Alameda Country Sheriffs we given a opportunity to beat up the commie anti-American hippies. Looks like in this case, the electronic music dance enthusiasts were the target. I'm sure the police enjoyed themselves with this party of violence.

I'm not surprised at this kind of police excess. It is correlated to the war in Iraq, just as civil violence was huge during the war in Vietnam. When the federal government starts trying to assert it's cultural preferences with violence overseas and gets frustrated in an ongoing never-ending non-victory, then it's just a matter of time before the local police start acting this way. I fear that this is just the beginning.

Deknow, even though you have attended many rave parties where drug use was rampant, we can not leap the conclusion that every electronic music concert is a drug fest. In fact, there are many movements in electronic-music where consciousness expansion without drugs is a primary part of the scene. I'm thinking of pychedelic Trance in Germany. In most civilized countries there is a premise of innocent until proven guilty, unlawful search and seizure, and due process of law.

During the Vietnam War it was rock music that was at the center of political protest and often the target of police violence. Now, rock music is the music of the establishment. We now take notice that electronic-dance music is becoming the focus of violence by the establishment.

August 20th was a dark day for music.

[Mohoyoho]

I agree. Expect to see more of this under the guise of the Patriot Act. (That name just doesn't agree with me.)

[Kassen]

Sure, you are right, Mosc, there are many events that are nearly completely clean and in the long run those are the scenes that are more pleasant to be in and the ones that last.

I think the big difference between this and Vietnam is that it's my impression that the current "candy raver" scene in the U.S. isn't political at all and is more about escapism.

[deknow]

not all electronic music is drug oriented, but this event was billed as a rave, consisted of rave dj's and had only the requisite "open containers, drugs and alcohol will be confiscated" in their advertisment, not the "anyone caught selling drugs will be arrested" or other message that a true rejection of drug dealing would inspire. i'm all for innocent until proven guilty, but the reports were that they moved in after their undercover agents witnessed "drug crimes"...they were there because events just like this one are always drug parites. if it were not a drug party, it would look like something differant. of course undercover agents could find volations at any sporting event, concert, high school, or campground, but raves do attract young kids and are places where excessive drug use is commonplace among those young kids, and where large quantities of drugs are sold both to end users and to other distributors. the public associates rave music with drugs for a reason, and it isn't simply "fear of the unknown"....it's legitimate concern, and it is justified. the establishment remembers their rock music being villified, and i don't think gives a crap about "techno", or would buy the "music leads to evil" argument...the objections are not about the music, but about the drugs.

it is interesting that in cnn's moog obit, they said the following:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/22/moog.obit.ap/index.html

[a.vanvranken]

[mosc]

[Mohoyoho]

I hate to say this, but I don't think you will see many young people get too involved in anti-politcal movements until it's their ass on the line. The big difference between youth now and youth in the 60s was The Draft.

[a.vanvranken]

[mosc]

[mosc]

[Kassen]

European left-wing hardcore tends to be quite political. I realy think Bomb20's "Field Manual" is a exelent album of political collage art, I warmly recomend it to everybody who doesn't mind a few Gabba kicks in his collage art. Ok, quite a few Gabba kicks.

[Kassen]

[dmosc]

it's a very important point there kassen. Maybe some people there were expecting to get picked up later or wait for the booze to wear off. Forcing them to leave "or else" just moves the problem onto the roads. It's like handing a loaded gun to them instead of a pill. I can't see how that's better.

My almamatter had similar problems. In the 90s, there was an off-campus party that got out of hand and the police told the university they were going to move in so the university responded by buying 10 kegs from the local distributor, setting them up in the middle of the quad, and telling people to move on campus for free beer and safety. Of course, free beer did the trick and nobody got seriously hurt that night.

The same thing happened the year after I left and they did nothing, allowing the police to move in. There were riots, dozens of arrests, and serious injuries.

My point is that citizens violate the law. Almost every one of them. You can't stop treating them like human beings for it. They didn't commit murder or rape for god's sake. A little more tact on the part of law enforcement would be a good thing. Even offering free alcohol to underaged kids can save lives in the right situation

[Kassen]

Speaking of kids and alcohol; Here the drinking age is 16, you can drive at 18. I think that's the right order. I think it's rather obvious that you should give people the chance to discover that too much drinking makes you feel sick and do stupid stuff *bedore* you can move a ton of steel around realy fast.

That "free beer" trick is great, B.T.W., I realy admire that sort of solution. Compared to the alternative it was probably a bargain too.

I think it's overall wisest to try and let raves be, especially the illegal hardcore ones with all the punks and the dogs and so on. If you don't you'll have a complete tribe that scatters, all of drunk and high people that are now pissed off and feeling rebelious. That can't be a good idea.

[deknow]

i totally agree that it's stupid to force a bunch of ravers into their cars. the one time i was not safe to drive when a party got broken up (about 10 years ago), i had arrived with someone who was totally straight, and had a license....very convenient (and lucky...i was in no shape to drive).

i think there is a misinterpretation here......if they wanted to shut down the party, it would have been easy (as everyone has pointed out) with a few cop cars. this is an hour from salt lake city in utah....a very conservative (and strongly mormon) area. the easy way of shutting down parites does little to prevent future attempts (both by promoters and patrons)...the goal was to make it clear that "raves are not welcome here"...not only will promoters be inclined not to try this again, patrons are less likely to attend a similar event. the flier for this event had no age restrictions, and looks like a rave flier....if it was a "concert" not centered on drugs, they did a good job of hiding that fact. i'm not sure that it's bad to discourage events like this, as there is no attempt to keep things safe for younger kids by the promoters or the "rave community"...there is no intrest in activism beyond "we've got to fight for the right to paaaaaaaarty!". i was initialy inspired by my exposure to raves 10 years ago (both the music and the energy), but found over time that all that energy was always directed towards getting drugs. i certainly feel that i have grown from experementation, and i would hate to see others deprived of the opurtunity (even if it comes with some legal risks), but i have also seen great harm to humans who are too young to look after themselves....raves are perhaps not the root cause, but they do encourage irresponsible behaviour. without some self regulation, they are bound to remain targets....and perhaps rightly so.

deknow

[Kassen]

I'm not so sure about the "safe for kids" point. Ypung kids aren't some natural phenomenon like rain or grass; they come from somewhere. If you put down a outdoor event in the middle of nowhere then there won't be any young kids there unless somebody brings them.

If some 16 year old kid decides he'll experiment with parties, drinks, chemicals and perhaps even (heaven forbid!) sexuality then he (or even she) will anyway, especially the sort of teenager that'll hear about these raves.

I don't think the typical conservative U.S. additude of a high drinking age, "War on drugs", abstinence and so on are working very well. If you place the laws and guidelines unrealistically then breaking them will be more common place and less of a big deal to young people. Back when the Netherlands had a huge wave of large (legal and illegal) raves there was a organisation the set up tables with tests. Your company would score some pills, you'd take one there and they'd test it. No questions. Sure people will still take MDMA but that's miles better then taking speed laced with LSD (common) if you don't know what you are getting into or taking washing powder laced with powdered cafeine (which reportedly isn't that much fun). We have a law here that requires free water to be available at parties if there is dancing and drinks. They may give you a lukewarm tap in a toilet but you have a RIGHT to as much drinkable water as you desire. I think that's the sort of thing that works.

It's ok to tell people that taking drugs is stupid. It's ok to tell them it's illegal and book them if they do but I think it's wise to also tell them that if they are insane enough to share needles then it's essential to use some bleach on those. Sure; it's bad if people break laws but I think it's greatly preferable to having them break laws and in addition to that get totally fucked up.

From that perspective I think the current conservative U.S. additude isn't working that well. frankly I think it's a disaster. If you have no grey area then you'll make a lot of people feel that they are on the wrong side of some fense anyway which I think isn't such a good feeling to induce.