Joined: Jun 05, 2005 Posts: 473 Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:49 am Post subject:
Firstly I would like to congratulate you all on all your hard work on this post. I have been following it from a distance, taking a look at new posts every now and then.
A while back, I was playing around with a basic patch, I added some overdrive and lo and behold, I found myself playing with a reasonable 303 sound. Now, I haven't gone into the depths that you guys have for accuracy of sound and control, but I feel that the patch sounds fairly convincing as it is and as we all know, saving DSP on a G2 is fairly important.
The point is that possibly your patches have become too accurate and in the process become too big and complicated (for me anyway). It might of course be that as I didn't build them, I didn't fully understand them, but it just occurred to me that reasonable enough 303(ish) sounds can be achieved/patched much easier/quicker/DSP lighter... I suppose not every 303 line will utilise all of the control mechanisms that you provided.
I am aware that the point of this post was to create an as realistic 303 sound as possible, but I just thought that I would share my (simple?) discovery with the 303 enthusiasts that have also been following this post.
Anyway, I'm not putting down your attempts by any means, but instead just offering a lighter (maybe not as accurate sounding) version of a 303 sound. I have recently posted it in a performance here: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-86890.html#86890 with other less 303-like sounds, but have also taken the main sound and put in some basic drums and attached it below. The 303 sound generation modules are red and the rest of the control modules for it are yellow. The rest are for the drums.
I have also attached a 'Lite' version with just the 303 sound, its sequencer and some basic modulation options... it comes in at around 20% load.
303 Lite.pch2
Description:
'Lite' version with just the 303 sound, its sequencer and some basic modulation options... it comes in at around 20% load.
Joined: Dec 23, 2004 Posts: 14 Location: MD USA
G2 patch files: 11
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject:
TB303 Model Subject description: Correction to number of poles used in filter
Added correct number of poles with first pole lowered to give a similar effect (I think) to the 303 diode ladder - 24db with more like an 18db response.
So... I started another go... Robs great Diode Clipper building block seems to provide the solution to get the filter screaming...A solution where each pole is done by one of Robs Blocks is way to expensive but even a single pole done in Robs design brings the whole filter sound a good step in the direction of the 303 sound...
I post my interim workbase version of the 303 filter because there are some points that are in discussion somehow...
For example it seems important, to get the filter nasty in a similar fashion to the 303, that not all poles get modulated in high resonance settings..i wonder if this is backed up by the circuit diagram or if in the real thing maybe the poles react different to modulation when being in resonance?
The attached filter try is rather modelled by ear than the circuit diagram..
And its still not tuned to behave like the real one... Just a try to get enough aggressive potential to fil the mod range of a real 303.
I got out after the 3rd pole...(robs diode clipper to the left) while the fourth pole is just in the feedback path..(diode clipper to the right) without env modulation...
I wonder if something like that is somehow backed up in the circuit diagram.. May anybody with a deeper electronic knowledge might have a look ?
Another finding in the challenge for the 303 filter is, that it seems to be necessary to imply much bigger delays in the feedback loop as provided within the standard filter modules to get the resonance into it screaming state...
I wonder why? are there really such big time offsets within a diode ladder filter like the 303´s one?
Are there other ideas how to get the scream without the delay module?
It don't stops resonating and need extra circuit to be controlled...
Still quite a bit of way to go..But thanks to Rob it seems more possible than ever to get the bloody 303 filter finally hacked with the G2...
In all the 3030 trys sofar the high resonant settings never got aggressive enough tro match with the real thing...
When you switch of env modulation you will see that this patch here gets very aggressive...
Next step for me is to give the quirky envelop mod of the 303 another go... I just lent the devilfish again..And the real thing is really a monster with its control ranges and control depth..
A thing none of the 303 emus sofar is providing...you get nice 303 alike sounds..most of the time even more interesting than the 1000 times heard real 303 sound...but you never have the playability of the real thing..the wow factor when turning the knobs needs to be emulated...#
for the time being thios expensive filtermodule is strong enough...weakest bit in the chain are the envelope mod problems now...
-The ModEnvelope adds to the Filter cutoff via the accent amount knob...
-The mod envelope adds and subtracts from the filter cutoff via the ENV MOD knob... means it travels from positve to negative values
ACC to VCA
The accent amount to the level of the vca is actually a parallel feed modulated by the Mod envelope..so the 303 actually has 2 VCA envelopes that get mixed before the output..therefore there are situations where accented notes can sound longer than normal ones and even when the machine is not triggering...
So roland managed it to let a machine with 2 envelopes sound like one with 4. Plus an extra modulation gimmick... the:
ACC sweep circuit.
Is feeded by the Mod Env via the accent amount knob.
The amount of its part in the mixture with the mod env signal is adjusted with a parallel pot to the resonance knob. This extra (stereo-pot) pot also adjusts the load and release behavior of the accent sweep circuit.
So accent sweep build ups behave different related to the resonance amount.
The devilfish overdrive function...
The Overdrive is generated before the filter... It cuts low and high frequencies when driven hard..the saw wave gets pretty early a similar shape that the 303s square wave but on a much higher level that forces the filter to become less resonant because of the overload..
OSC PW
The 303 has pulsewidth modulation..
The square is created by clipping the saw... it seems that the control voltage is somehow leaking thru and i guess this is not an accident...
The pulsewidth of the resulting wave is variating around 15%-20% over the 303 key range...
An optimized version of the 303 Frame that gives the desired sequencer functionality... Very expensive... but ... It gets closer to the 303 feel that way and maybe clavia comes up wit a module that can access the knob and button independently... Now 8 sequencers have too play that role that one module should have..
Anyway.. After many trys i streamlined the 303Frames user interface3 and conception..Parameter set reflects a devifish 303...
Sequencer in slot C... Slot D holds the sequencer and parameter controls aswell as a bulky 303 simulation try...
The important part is the control interaction between slot D and C...
While the knobs of D A1 control the basic 303 parameters the first 6 buttons select Variation 1-6 in Slot C...There is a feed back from slot C to Slot D.
Button 7and 8 transpose the sequencer ... changing the pattern removes the transpose like in the real 303...
This whole mimic gives a pretty good 303 feel regarding knob twiddling while changing patterns and doing transposes...
Very much what the 303 is about and a feature that might be good to perform other sounds aswell.
The pattern change/transpose is quantized..either on 16th notes or bars...
The bulky 303 simulation try within the performance contains all essential features of a devilfish 303..but it again don't sounds like one...
somewhere in the night yesterday i had the same patch sounding close...
But as soon i changed some things to introduce the control mechanism everything went online..and i haven't done a safe ...
I will update this at a later point..but because its christmas and i like to stop that shit for now I share the nice working sequencer network now ..
However... The attached perf at least gets closer to the real thing regarding the handling as any other 303 patch on the g2 sofar...
The essential frame network takes less tahn one dsp...so for me it probably pays of to build patches around the frame and try different sequencers and sound engines...
just the basic 303 building blocks set to function without unnecessary modelling and the 303 Frame...
therefore its easier to see what is going on...
Not 100% confirmed yet but the 303 model should be very close to that what is really going on on the machine..
I will try now to model the ballistics wright and do acoustic modeling later..
should have done this before...
The rough structure first..than the details...
You however learn what is going on when you model details...
aslong a real 303 still wins it stays actual somehow...
But there are other things to patch than the perfect 303...
I am however still convinced that its possible..Its just very hard to hack how the parameters of a real 303 interact...
The other 303 clones out there dont get this wright aswell... at least not the ones i know... however...maybe in the winter again
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 149 Location: brazil
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 32
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject:
fun with 303
still looking for the perfect virtual 303 sound
with this patch i´ve got VERY CLOSE to the one used in a music i like from infected mushroom´s merlin
posted here
by the way, a G2 performance with xox beatmachine with glitch kranhjek-like FX +303 still very needy
all in manner, that require no computer to insert notes and drums, may be in realtime - that must be the same 2 prepare G2 for spring and summer ))
Joined: Mar 02, 2007 Posts: 30 Location: France
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 12
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject:
hi all!
I'm also looking for that TB acid sound !
I previously sent a version of that patch in another thread but, by reading further topics, i realize i still had lot of work to do..so i did..
the tb isn't so easy to emulate!
here is my interpretation that include the different tips i found..
it's still not over but sound quite good now, i think.. can do acid lines..
it's so great this thread is still alive and growing, cause 303 flaw is one of the key parts of techno electronics up to now 2 mymind. it's so pity I have no enough knowledge to develop 303-like instrument myself, but support others success
Great sounding examples, great patches
Do this patches have all or most main capabilities of 303 sequencer-vice? sound-vice? Or them sounds nice but limited in something compared to 303?
Joined: Mar 02, 2007 Posts: 30 Location: France
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 12
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:55 am Post subject:
thanks for your kind words !
Neon Sega, this patch has the basic sequencing capabilities of the 303 : note, trig, accent, slide.
it's a 16 step basic sequencer + some extra switchable sequencers to had more trigs, accents, slides, arpeggio, octave .. which make it quite playable..
The thing you can't do with this one is chaining the patterns... on the G2 it's not easy to do so with a one slot patch...(an "exclude from variations" option would be great for that!)
Anyway, even if we cannot do an exact copy of the TB, the goal is to make a patch that sounds good and which is easy to tweak and play.. and the G2 can do that!
the goal is to make a patch that sounds good and which is easy to tweak and play.. and the G2 can do that!
Is it mean, I can assign more controllers in your patch or another patch from this thread and play/program it in live situation like a 303?
I'm actually not a purist sound-vice, but I'd like actually to have an ability to study 303-realtime technics before I'll mind try to buy a 303
but may be G2 303-like patch better to play? May be such patch able to have not less, but more options, then 303?
I don't can play 303 - never had one.
It's seemed to me great to have a G2 patch with correctly assigned controllers=knobs + buttons & practice to play/program it in true/oldschool techno manner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSKs9dbmMRE&feature=related
like it's able in realtime with no presets like on 303 or 909/808 (next 2 steps for me)
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I have been following it from a distance, taking a look at new posts every now and then.
Sheridan
New 303 Model
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