Quick Question

1:11

i've been learning lately that different microchips can alter the character of the sounds being processed through them.

i'm having trouble understanding why.
If the signal is just 1's and 0's, why is there still color being added?

Is it purely an effect of the A/D-D/A converter?
and does this still effect processing done entirely "in the box"?

Also, does this mean if i mixdown on one computer, another computer mixing the same signal will sound different?

Thanks ahead of time.
-1:11=

DrJustice

The question may be quick, but a complete explanation is not so quick - this is a much debated issue on the net, with a lot of confusion surrounding it.

1:11 · Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject:

That was a fantastic answer!

Thank You for taking the time to thoroughly explain the basics, i think i'm finally starting to understand it.
..that helped out quite a bit!! Very Happy

Rad, it's always so cool when you learn new things...

edit:
Would fishy DAW's include those that use extensive "beat matching", time warping ect. as their main feature? (even when all warp settings are off)

Also, are you still able to push a floating point processor to a point where colorization occurs, like you can with a fixed point?
Again thank you, this is a great help.

DrJustice · Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:49 am Post subject:

I'm glad you found it useful Smile

nobody · Joined: Mar 09, 2008 Posts: 1687 Location: Not here

DrJustice · Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:19 am Post subject:

1:11 · Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:38 am Post subject:

Is this what you mean?

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DrJustice · Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:54 am Post subject:

^ That's a pretty high rate of flip-flops right there Shocked

DJ
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Antimon · Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject:

A reflection: when someone stops by a desk at work and starts by saying "Quick question", the following conversation will usually not be the briefest during that day. Wink

I wish those conversations were as interesting as this thread though! Smile

Acoustic Interloper · Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject:

Antimon · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:07 am Post subject:

1:11 · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:59 am Post subject:

LOL!!

About 10 minutes after posting, i was thinking about that....not so quick...like:
Quick question- What is the meaning of Life? hehe

It IS a cool thread...i've read the Doctors response about 10 times already, lots of good info to know!!
i did have some more "quick questions" in the edit on my response above.
edit:duh, missed the Dr.s Response...sheesh.

The problem i'm having is that WAV's mixed from another DAW/Comp and are import/exported to a different system seem to sound different while in my main DAW (compared to playing wavs straight).

i'm using Live, and even when all sound processesing tools are off, there seems to be coloration. And when i export to somewhere else, it seems different.

Audio, hope you weren't offended by my post, was just being a jokester. Care to expand on the intentional colorization?

1:11 · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:59 am Post subject:

Ok...so i need to look into all the settings then.
i DO use a large handful of tracks, but the percieved color happens when soloing as well.

On proprietary algorithms, namely iTunes/Apple,
Are they possibly using an alg that makes the signal sound good on their products?
Like, if i am using iTunes to convert into MP3, is their processing set up to make it sound the best on Apple products?

Going through my settings with a fine tooth comb....

Antimon · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject:

Live does have a bunch of fancy manipulative stuff that always seems to come on by default. I've found, especially when importing external wav files from Nanostudio, that I need to go through every sample and turn off "Warp" to get it to sound like I want it. Curiously, I have similar problems on the Octatrack (reported a bug on it), seems like a general problem with these time-shift-centric devices...

jksuperstar · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject:

I doubt Apple is doing that, since I don't think the iPod sounds all that good anyway. You're ear buds would probably have a larger impact than any tweaking that they can do.

One thing to note about DSPs vs. general purpose (GP) computing (intel, AMD, etc). The GP processors typically adhere to IEEE-754, a standard that says for example "when you do a floating point add of two numbers, convert them into fixed point *this* way, then add them, then normalize to something close to 1.000 x 10^x as possible to make the final answer available as another floating point number". All that converting back & forth...for each operation, can add up in the long run.

DSPs however are typically hand-coded to optimize out all those conversions, as the DSPs allow many more operations like: "For adding 16 floating point numbers, convert them all to fixed, then add them all, then normalize". A GP computer would more probably add two at a time, with conversions to fixed/float/normalizing happening for each group of two.

Acoustic Interloper · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject:

DrJustice · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject:

Antimon · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:31 am Post subject:

Now that you mention it, I often see that the master meter in Live goes up in the red without any obvious audible effect, which doesn't correspond with my idea of digital clipping. If I put a lot of boost on the signal it will clip though.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't because Live leaves a lot of headroom, because the volume is what I'd expect it to be in these cases, close to max. So some kind of compression most likely is taking place.

/Stefan

Acoustic Interloper · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:05 am Post subject:

It works to good effect with my duets with algorithmic improvisation such as finger picking guitar or banjo atop scrabble-to-midi. When I lean in, my algorithmic partner falls back somewhat, and when I lighten up on my picking, the generated voices get louder, seeming actually to take the lead. There is seeming interplay between my playing and the machine's. After noticing this on a webcast recording one time, I started using compressors intensionally to accent the effect. So, now I have no idea whether it was Live or my perception, but it's a useful approach.

1:11 · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:15 am Post subject:

It's looking like you guys are picking up the same type of coloration i'm experiencing.

Just as Interloper mentioned, haven't used a scope or other analysis tools on the audio yet, but i'm thinkin it'd be a good idea. Cuz i might have to switch DAW's for creating...
It does kinda sound like masking or a touch of compression.

The meters in Live have always been a mystery to me. Cuz you're right Antimon, you don't hear clipping when it's tapping in the red.
But i'm thinking when you have it in the green, it's lower volume than other DAW's.
When you listen to any of my tracks, they all have a lower volume than other peoples tracks on the radio...yet when mixing down, the meters slightly bump the reds.

Feels like might be approaching the cause of the perceived coloration, RAD!!

[/code]

Acoustic Interloper · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject:

I use Live as an instrument. I use Live effects fairly heavily, so to me its "colorization" is like any other instrument, e.g., a good guitar. It's not just that I don't "mind" it, I "use" it. It's a very powerful instrument.

When I want a clean recording, I ask my son to do it with ProTools LE. I usually don't bother much, because limited time being what it is, this is all pretty ephemeral stuff for me. I let my streaming program capture a WAV or MP3 when I am contributing to a webcast. I am usually satisfied with that. The clinkers in my finger picking are a bigger source of aggravation for me.

1:11 · Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject:

YES, Live IS an Instrument.
i couldn't do what i do with out it!!

i suppose that'd be a better way of looking at it.
Think i'm gonna use something else for compiling tracks, but i'll probably always use Live for performances and glitching stuff out!

1:11 · Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject:

Another Question for the Experts!!

It was said that a large number of tracks can possibly effect performance processing...SO....

What about using a large number of individual samples on each track?
i use anywhere from 10-20 individual samples on each track, on about 10-16 tracks. So sometimes sample #'s are triple digit.

Last night i noticed when processing video along with audio, dips in processing quality. Especially with a large # of video clips....so maybe there's a limit to just audio too......

Is this the reason you get an out of the box DSP?

DrJustice · Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:46 am Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:08 am Post subject:

I only recommend this because I replaced my studio with one recently: The Sonic|Core SCOPE XITE. It's a DSP box, full of 18 DSPs, has a really great collection of synths and effects, as well as what I would call bast-in-class mixing. It can handle 64 ASIO channels, so I send each track from Ableton to the XITE for mixing in real time, and bypass ableton's mixer altogether. That's the best of both worlds to me. I'd agree Ableton seems to do things so it never sounds "bad", as it is a live instrument, and so otherwise you can get yourself into trouble...on stage. But I've never quantized it.