Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:15 am Post subject:
Astrophoto NGC 602 and Beyond
Here's another amazing picture. This one is NGC 602. There are the now-familiar "columns of creation" which are star forming regions. There is much to marvel at in this picture, not the least of which is the amazing array of galaxies in the background. Another amazing thing is that this nebula in not in the Milky Way, but in a smaller galaxy called the Small Magellanic Cloud. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050617.html
Joined: Mar 09, 2008 Posts: 1687 Location: Not here
Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:59 am Post subject:
Wow^10^10.
It makes me angry to think that instead of engaging in stupid, petty bickering over non-issues and general fuckery, our species could well be out there by now if we'd only apply our brains to something other than making a fucking buck and screwing the living daylights out of each other.
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject:
That's a beautiful picture, mosc. I love this stuff.
audiodef wrote:
instead of engaging in stupid, petty bickering over non-issues and general fuckery, our species could well be out there by now.
I think we've done pretty well in the last 100 years toward exploration of what's out there. It was only 90 years ago or so that we knew there was anything besides our own Milky Way galaxy... I'm disapointed at some of the U.S. decisions to slow exploration beyond low earth orbit.... The shuttle was a bust, as far as I'm concerned... but generally - we're getting there in pretty good time, cosmically speaking.
I'd like to think we could actually get 'out there, out there' (as in the pic) but my brain can't wrap its way around the time/distance problems to do it. We may have to be content looking at it from afar unless we figure out how to bypass the physical speed limit issues.....
It makes me angry to think that instead of engaging in stupid, petty bickering over non-issues and general fuckery, our species could well be out there by now if we'd only apply our brains to something other than making a fucking buck and screwing the living daylights out of each other.
It depends on how you look at it.
RF wrote:
The shuttle was a bust, as far as I'm concerned... but generally - we're getting there in pretty good time, cosmically speaking.
According to NASA, the Space Shuttle came about because the CIA needed a large shuttle to ship big spy equipment into orbit. NASA wanted to make a lightweight, easy to launch vessel but was vetoed by the CIA. However, we might not have had the Hubble telescope or the Spitzer telescope up there now if NASA had their way... Swings and roundabouts.
In addition to that, the moon landings were an enormous risk-taking project by NASA, to fulfill a promise of "By the end of this decade" by Kennedy. It was the US showing their superiority - "bickering" if you will, not primarily driven by a scientific urge or curiosity. So the picture is not as simple as it may seem. _________________ Muied Lumens Sub Forum Bandcamp
I don't think we'll get out there until we eradicate religion.
We managed to wipe out smallpox by 1975, so what's the holdup with god? _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:32 am Post subject:
Uncle Krunkus wrote:
I don't think we'll get out there until we eradicate religion.
Eh?
Are you linking all of humankinds ability to wonder, question, explore, or innovate to those without a belief in a God or not involved in some religion??
Certainly you voiced that thought just as a little 'poke in the eye' to those that might hold to a belief in a being greater than ourselves?
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:52 am Post subject:
I own some smallish astronomical telescopes and spend a good deal of time looking at the night sky. One thing that the experience of astronomy or even looking at a picture like the one posted by mosc has done for me is to question the certainty of what I think I know. The tiny portion of the cosmos shown in that picture, the number of galaxies in that small bit of the whole.... I can't help but wonder how I can be certain of any but the most mundane aspects of my existance.
Are you linking all of humankinds ability to wonder, question, explore, or innovate to those without a belief in a God or not involved in some religion??
No, I'm actually linking the logical complimentary of that.
As in, the reason we are still fighting wars, believing that our chances to do anything of any value continue after we die, abusing children whom might have grown up to discover faster than light travel, etc. etc. etc. etc. is because of the mystical garbage which religion imparts to our otherwise intelligent minds. Above all that, we are actually allowed to infect our children with this debilitating, delusional, disease.
Without it, I reckon we could be "out there" in less than 200 years. We've been living with the affects of spirituality for thousands of years, and if that hadn't been the case, we'd be "out there" now.
That of course is not reasonable, as I do understand that this stuff is probably a normal part of any intelligence which is still in it's infancy.
Isn't it about time we grew up? _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject:
We already have a religion thread, but oh well it's schmooze.
Anyway, I don't think religion is the main reason for not going out into space, unless you by religion mean weird people-stuff/politics that don't always put scientifical progress at the highest priority.
Also, it's trickier to go into space than we think. Going to the Moon was an incredible feat, Mars is much further away, not to mention other planets and moons. Regarding interstellar space travel, I can recommend some interesting blog posts and attached discussions over at Charles Stross's blog:
Are you linking all of humankinds ability to wonder, question, explore, or innovate to those without a belief in a God or not involved in some religion??
No, I'm actually linking the logical complimentary of that.
As in, the reason we are still fighting wars, believing that our chances to do anything of any value continue after we die, abusing children whom might have grown up to discover faster than light travel, etc. etc. etc. etc. is because of the mystical garbage which religion imparts to our otherwise intelligent minds. Above all that, we are actually allowed to infect our children with this debilitating, delusional, disease.
Without it, I reckon we could be "out there" in less than 200 years. We've been living with the affects of spirituality for thousands of years, and if that hadn't been the case, we'd be "out there" now.
That of course is not reasonable, as I do understand that this stuff is probably a normal part of any intelligence which is still in it's infancy.
Isn't it about time we grew up?
I have no problem agreeing with you that religion really sucks big time Unckle. Organised religion messes up things, but that is only humans doing their silly things. The same happens in science, with people offering death threats to someone who claims to have discovered a perpetuum mobile (sic) for exampe.
I don't see how a personal, individual belief in something outside of what you can see, touch and measure has any impact at all on how you conduct science. As Steven Weinberg said: "Science does not make it impossible to believe in God. It just makes it possible to not believe in God." The point being that as we discard 'magic' as the cause of things, we can explain them in other ways. However, science cannot be used to discard the existence of something that is in effect unprovable, and it's only foolish to try, as some do. Otherwise, there is no problem in believeing that there is no God - we are not all here to go around believeing in things stauchly and being bloody-minded about it, we are here to realise the full potential of our lives. And to be patient about it. And tolerant towards others. And so on. I'm not in any illusions about how fucked up religion is - and not just Christianity, but just about every religious belief out there becomes twisted by power hungry idiots who have no interest in the actual message of prophets and gurus.
Whether we are an infant intelligence or not has nothing to do with neither science or religion as it stands today, because they will both change - for the better and the worse. The concept of enlightenment in mysticism is about a path, not a goal - you don't just suddenly 'reach' it, you reach towards it and every day become a better person. We don't need to very intelligent to do that, neither very intellectual - or religious - just flexible and open minded. There is a great heritage in the wealth of material provided by individuals who had something to say on the issue of something larger that ourselves, and I think science fits right into that picture. _________________ Muied Lumens Sub Forum Bandcamp
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:33 am Post subject:
Re: Astrophoto NGC 602 and Beyond
mosc wrote:
Here's another amazing picture. This one is NGC 602. There are the now-familiar "columns of creation" which are star forming regions. There is much to marvel at in this picture, not the least of which is the amazing array of galaxies in the background. Another amazing thing is that this nebula in not in the Milky Way, but in a smaller galaxy called the Small Magellanic Cloud. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050617.html
It's amazing what's outside our window.
If that image is outside your window, I want to talk with your real estate agent
Do you notice how the inner image is almost Fractal-like (or is that Mandelbrot-like?) ? _________________ Free Tibet. Release the Panchen Lama from prison. Let the Dalai Lama return to his home.
Sorry,
I've just been feeling particularly irritable and pessimistic lately.
I won't continue with more ranting. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
Joined: Jun 04, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject:
Uncle Krunkus wrote:
As in, the reason we are still fighting wars, believing that our chances to do anything of any value continue after we die, abusing children whom might have grown up to discover faster than light travel, etc. etc. etc. etc. is because of the mystical garbage which religion imparts to our otherwise intelligent minds. Above all that, we are actually allowed to infect our children with this debilitating, delusional, disease.
Pardon my French, but this is a bit simplistic, isn't it? If there is no God, then where does religion come from? And if so, how would abolishing religion improve anything? I guess I'm a pessimist.
Sorry, I'm just passing by this schmooze but can't resist to go a bit further off topic. To me the fascinating pictures of the universe show that there is little room for simplicity or easy explanations. _________________ Spinning at ~0.0000115740740741 Hz
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2924 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject:
Uncle Krunkus wrote:
As in, the reason we are still fighting wars, believing that our chances to do anything of any value continue after we die, abusing children whom might have grown up to discover faster than light travel, etc. etc. etc. etc. is because of the mystical garbage which religion imparts to our otherwise intelligent minds. Above all that, we are actually allowed to infect our children with this debilitating, delusional, disease.
As I can find not a shred of evidence for god I'm definitely of the opinion that those who believe strongly in god are a bit delusional. That said, I thinks the failings of humanity are innate and were there no belief in god things would be little better. We don't need a belief in god to act like nasty tempered shits ... but I admit it does seem to help some people get there.
Fozzie wrote:
If there is no God, then where does religion come from?
Our specie's need for simple comforting explanations, our fear of the unknown and our fear of death. And from the needs of the institutions of state that find utility in wrapping their miss deeds and miss appropriations in the garb of sanctity. And for that large fraction of humanity that fears and loathes independent thinking it is both an irresistible refuge and excuse.
my 2cents _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject:
I'll point once again to the beautiful picture that started this thread.
Our own galaxy-just the one we live in - holds hundreds of billions of stars - and is some 100 million light years across. There are billions of other galaxies that we can observe in the universe - each of those holding billions or hundreds of billions of stars. We've only been observing for a few hundred years... There's a lot we don't know about our neighborhood... let alone, what's beyond it.
A couple thoughts....
Is there life other than us out there? I have no evidence I can point to that says yes, but I choose to believe that humankind is more than just a 'fluke of the universe', and among all those other galaxies there sure 'could' be.
It's thought that in certain circumstances within the universe (ie. within a black hole, or during the 'Big Bang') the physical 'laws' we all take for granted did not apply... How about beyond the boundaries of our expanding universe? What 'laws' of what we _know_ to be unbreakable or think impossible are in effect there?
It's seems like it might be a weird place at times - and really full of mysteries none of us on earth know anything about.
I'm not some delusional mystic but I do choose to believe it's possible for things I do not or can not understand to be.
I will not slam those who think different than myself, but I certainly love to share and discuss the wonder of it all. I worry sometimes that we have lost something precious when we become so sure of what we 'know.'
I would suggest that those who won't let themselves wonder at possibilities beyond what they understand are the greater threat to humankinds exploration of space, earth, self or whatever.
bruce
(Note: IF there is other life in the universe, and we should chance to meet them someday, I am of the opinion that there had better be a God and some universal standard of morality or we're in deep trouble.) _________________ www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963)
Joined: Jun 04, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:34 am Post subject:
bachus wrote:
Uncle Krunkus wrote:
As in, the reason we are still fighting wars, believing that our chances to do anything of any value continue after we die, abusing children whom might have grown up to discover faster than light travel, etc. etc. etc. etc. is because of the mystical garbage which religion imparts to our otherwise intelligent minds. Above all that, we are actually allowed to infect our children with this debilitating, delusional, disease.
As I can find not a shred of evidence for god I'm definitely of the opinion that those who believe strongly in god are a bit delusional. That said, I thinks the failings of humanity are innate and were there no belief in god things would be little better. We don't need a belief in god to act like nasty tempered shits ... but I admit it does seem to help some people get there.
Fozzie wrote:
If there is no God, then where does religion come from?
Our specie's need for simple comforting explanations, our fear of the unknown and our fear of death. And from the needs of the institutions of state that find utility in wrapping their miss deeds and miss appropriations in the garb of sanctity. And for that large fraction of humanity that fears and loathes independent thinking it is both an irresistible refuge and excuse.
my 2cents
I promise I'll quit after this one , but of course I was pointing out that from the atheist point of view, religion is strictly a consequence of our human nature. I don't think we will chance either of those all too soon. _________________ Spinning at ~0.0000115740740741 Hz
I agree with everything you said Bruce.
But I don't think it's a valid excuse for believing in a god.
That's just not logical.
BTW, belief in a god has nothing to do with morality.
I shall rant no more. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
I agree with everything you said Bruce.
But I don't think it's a valid excuse for believing in a god.
That's just not logical.
BTW, belief in a god has nothing to do with morality.
I shall rant no more.
Even logic is not logical some times.
And keep on ranting! There is nothing wrong with a bit of a rant amongst friends.
I find that a belief in god is irrelevevant, as is morals, which change with the times and culture. Searching for the truth is what is important to me, and being a strong and humble human being, inspired and content, no matter the situation. We live in a fluid, changing universe which supplies us with and infinite amount of inspiration. Worrying about one little spiecies living on a speck of dust is both irrational and completely natural.
I like how the scientists are coming to the conclusion that everything is connected. Science often discovers things that mystics have known for a long time. _________________ Muied Lumens Sub Forum Bandcamp
I think we are "out there" now. This really is outside our window. We all have great real estate.
These pics are how we percieve our universe. In the future we will hopefully take better ones, maybe with 3D virtual reality, but relativity imposes certain limits on us, and anyone else that is "out there" on another star/planet. This really is Spaceship Earth. Enjoy the ride and the great views out the window, shipmates. _________________ --Howard
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