sequencing in chuck

[Rinko]

hello all!

i have a general question for people, its one i've struggled with and not come up with an answer for but my knowledge of chuck is very limited so i would appreciate the opinions of others:

i can personally see the value of synthesizing sound and manipulating sound in chuck. it seems very powerful and flexible and i can think of 1-2 things that i would like to do in these areas that i could not do any other way (that i'm aware of). however, i cannot yet personally see the value of sequencing with chuck (i am specifically referring to 'traditional' hand crafted sequencing rather than generative approaches) i cannot think of anything i could do with chuck (other than create generative sequences) that i could not do with a DAW such as ableton, for example.

i'll reiterate at this point that my knowledge of chuck is very limited but i have not found any evidence to change my mind yet anywhere.

basically i am wondering:

-how people sequence with chuck

-what benefits (if any) they feel they get from sequencing with chuck as opposed to with a DAW. are there any technical advantages and increased possibilities that chuck offers?

thank you for your time - i look forward to reading any responses!

[Kassen]

I can only talk about myself and my own practice; I like Ableton, I bought updates up to version 4 and sometimes still use it.

The reason I do all my sequencing with TR8OR (my sequencer which is written in ChucK) isn't one of features; it's one of interface. What I wanted was a step sequencer that could be programmed fast enough to program it in real time on stage with no pre-stored patterns and without looking at the screen.

Ableton, while nice, won't do this and none of the hardware devices I looked at (and I downloaded manuals for all the big ones) were focussed on this, particularly things like switching between patterns that you just wrote without stopping was a issue, so was sub-menus for setting things like pitch and velocity.

Basically my needs and ideas were quite idiosyncratic and so there was nothing for sale that covered them and I decided to write my own, based on how I experience and think about music. Feature-wise you could do everything it does in Ableton as well, probably, but I write a 6 minute song in 6 minutes on stage, from scratch. That's quite hard with Live. I also get to use arcade style controllers which I find very pleasant to play with and that look a bit more appealing on stage then most off the shelf music gear.

It all depends on what you like and want and how well this lines up with existing products. Do buy something if it suits your needs; it'll save you a LOT of time in development, but if you want to sequence in a unusual way then ChucK may make sense as a way out.

Aside from that I think there are advantages to integrating sequencing into the same system that you use to synthesise in because that way you can share and link parameters far easier, if needed.

[radarsat1]

i guess the usual technique is to use arrays, but yeah it's not necessarily a great solution.

something like... (off the top of my head, might not compile)

[radarsat1]

[Rinko]

thanks for your thoughts guys!

what other ways are there of sequencing (non-generatively) in chuck apart from with arrays? it's the only way i have seen so far.

@ radarsat1 - could you explain what you mean by non-sequenced music? i cant think of any music that does not involve sounds being planned and ordered in some fashion. do you mean non step-sequenced music?

cheers!

[radarsat1]

[Kassen]

[kijjaz]

Yes, I often start with some kind on an array also.
Especially, dealing with something quite pop or common rhythm grooves.

One thing I love to play with starting with easy array is the use of manipulating the index.

for example, using a 16-step sequencer with index 'i':


for(int i; i < 16; i++)
{
// do anything with reference to i
}

this is playing in a normal 0 to 15 sequence.

int a;
int b;
// (then initialize a and b)

for(int i; i <16> int startValue; can be anything from 0 to 15
int a;
int b;
// then initialize a and b
for(int i, startValue => int x; i <16> x;
b +=> x;
// then use x as the index instead of i
}
}

this can create some interesting jumps of the index also.
- - -

You can change 16 into any number, i usually make it 'int N'.
Using odd-time is interesting in this also..
for example, prime numbers .. 5, 7, 11, 13 ..

[radarsat1]

[Rinko]

i like that sentiment too - challenging!

@ Kassen - sorry to bother but what is a poly-dimensional array? i've not been able to find a defintition anywhere- is it one that controls the parameters of a number of different objects?


cheers.

[radarsat1]

[Kassen]

Yes, sorry, I meant "multi", my Latin isn't that good ;¬).

The largest problem with those arrays for sequencing may be that a array in ChucK can only contain one type of data; you can't mix floats and ints and durations.

What you can do though is creating a "note" class that contains values like "note number", "step duration", "note length", "note volume", "velocity","woblyness", etc. and have a array of those.

What you can also do is have a series of arrays of different types governing these things and use the in parallel. I don't like that solution that much; I'd rather have one array (probably 2 dimensional) for my pattern so I can use a different array (probably 3 dimensions) to store such patterns to and recall them from. There are many choices there and I found that as long as your code reflects this "way you think about music" it will be easier to develop, I also found that new features that fit with these thoughts will also fit with the code. At least in my experience I can say that if a feature would be very hard to add it likely doesn't fit with my older ideas on music either.

About assigning knobs; typically I only use a very small amount of knobs but have them affect a few parameters at once. I might for example have a "staccato v.s. legato" knob that at once affects a few envelope settings, note length and pitch-glide or a "aggression" knob that affects overdrive, and some sort of variable detune. I also tend to keep such knobs at the same spot from song to song. This isn't just because knobs take money, space and weight or because such parameters make more musical sense then "filter resonance modulation by LFO1" but also because I can only keep track of so much while playing, particularly on stage.

CPU time is one thing and for that we get clever at home with our thinking cap on (or under the shower, or while having a walk....) to optimise it so it'll work once the people get in or the recorder starts spinning but cognitive bandwith is another factor. I like to optimise for that as well because sequencing a small band worth of instruments live is hard work; it's harder on me then on my laptop's CPU. If anybody would like to go this way as well; you *will* sweat and you *will* get lost at times, I guarantee you you *are* going to forget where you are at some time (but it's great!), just make the most of you brain's bandwith by giving it a easy time with the controls, whether this is a sequencer or physical model of a shape-changing violin.

[kijjaz]

I have one idea I haven't tried using it as sequencing:

using Linked List for notes.

for example,
we have note class
and each note has a 'link' to another note.
there might be an 'end' note so that playing until the index reach the end note, the motif stops.
it can also form a loop..
and modifying the links of the notes can create / mess up melody sequence.

What do you think?
Shoud we try something with this idea?
It sounds more DATABASE to me heheeh.
but I've just had this idea a few minutes ago, so let's share more about this heheh.

[radarsat1]

[kijjaz]

Yes, especially when now we can dynamically add more members to the array,
we can surely grow a complex melody tree ehehe..
- - -

One idea I still haven't tried in ChucK is this, i was inspired by watching the videos of
Al-Jazari in Fluxus programming
http://www.pawfal.org/al-jazari/

The idea that we can adjust is that..
we can start with a 2D-Array, imagine it as the floor,
then, we put parameters in each cell of the floor,
for example: Triggers, Direction Command..

Then we have robot(s) walking on the array.
And a robot adjusts itself to the Command on the cell it arrives,
or produce triggers for notes / melody / etc.

I'd be fun playing around on this idea,
but visualization might be needed for it to be easier to control and show off.

[Antimon]

My SampleComposer thingy is a kind of sequencer that uses linked lists:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-27609.html

I made a fairly general LinkedList class (containing instances of subclasses of LinkedListElement) and put it close to the top of sample_runtime.ck, if anyone's interested.

/Stefan

[heuermh]

[renderful]

So many absolutely great ideas here. So much information/idea sharing, and code sharing. I have goosebumps, and BRAINFREEZE from all of this wonderful info/community. Thanks everyone!

[rogan]

I like the random walk idea. I've been toying around with the idea of recording a melody from a MIDI source (the key and the duration between hits, etc), then playing it back with randomness introduced in some form. For example swapping durations or notes, or bending frequencies slightly each loop through the melody. Maybe I'll write this up and post again with some sample code....