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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003
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Location: Firenze, Italy
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 Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 3:09 am Post subject:
RFID tags: Big Brother in small packages |
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Could we be constantly tracked through our clothes, shoes or even our cash in the future?
I'm not talking about having a microchip surgically implanted beneath your skin, which is what Applied Digital Systems of Palm Beach, Fla., would like to do. Nor am I talking about John Poindexter's creepy Total Information Awareness spy-veillance system, which I wrote about last week.
Instead, in the future, we could be tracked because we'll be wearing, eating and carrying objects that are carefully designed to do so.
http://news.com.com/2010-1069-980325.html
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elektro80
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 6:37 am Post subject:
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[ kidding ]I reckon that would be perfectly OK if the "Homeland" calls for it. Not?[ /kidding ]
Well.. what do you expect from the future?
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brinxmat
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:24 am Post subject:
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http://www.rfidvirus.org/
Hahhahahaha!
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Kassen
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brinxmat
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:01 am Post subject:
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Hæ?
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:27 am Post subject:
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That one seems like a load of bollocks.
The vast bulk of these chips simply broadcast a hard coded serial number, the sophisticated ones have tiny amounts of read/write data memory but the per unit price is too much for anything but high value products like motor vehicles.
Even if some fringe devices do have downloadable code, the notion that the RFID tag could transfer this code to a host platform is absurd. |
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:05 am Post subject:
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| g2ian wrote: |
That one seems like a load of bollocks.
The vast bulk of these chips simply broadcast a hard coded serial number, the sophisticated ones have tiny amounts of read/write data memory but the per unit price is too much for anything but high value products like motor vehicles.
Even if some fringe devices do have downloadable code, the notion that the RFID tag could transfer this code to a host platform is absurd. |
Read Brinxmat's link to www.rfidvirus.org. It's not absurd, it has been done and published. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
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Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:07 am Post subject:
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Two things about the exploits described in the paper:
1 - if there still exists programmers (hired to make such systems) that would write anything to allow them, we're doomed anyway 
2 - these types of exploits are based on a lot of assumptions: the system must be broken as in point 1, the exploiter must have access to the code, identify the precise faults and have knowledge about the hardware used, all systems along the infection route must be the exactly the same etc.
This is of course just some techno details - the moral implications and so on is a different issue.
DJ
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:29 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | Two things about the exploits described in the paper:
1 - if there still exists programmers (hired to make such systems) that would write anything to allow them, we're doomed anyway
2 - these types of exploits are based on a lot of assumptions: the system must be broken as in point 1, the exploiter must have access to the code, identify the precise faults and have knowledge about the hardware used, all systems along the infection route must be the exactly the same etc.
This is of course just some techno details - the moral implications and so on is a different issue.
DJ
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I am not qualified to make any authorative speculations, but in the paper / on the website they describe that point 1 is still widely overlooked. They also mention that any code written in C or C++ is intrinsically sensitive to these kinds or error (I have no idea whether this is true).
What I do think is important: they publish this stuff to get the attention from the companies that make these chips and reader systems and software, so that they will pay more attention to safety. I fully believe that companies will not do that out of their own motivation, if it is not directly important for their sales (as in: untill there will be some major hacking going on and everybody involved will demand high safety precautions). In addition, these are just examples of what might be possible. I think it's safe to assume that hackers will also improve & get smarter over time. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:14 am Post subject:
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| Fozzie wrote: |
I am not qualified to make any authorative speculations, but in the paper / on the website they describe that point 1 is still widely overlooked.
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...which would imply gross stupidity and incompetence - we may always have that around  However, lets hope that stupid and incompetent programmers are not hired to write these systems.
| Quote: |
They also mention that any code written in C or C++ is intrinsically sensitive to these kinds or error (I have no idea whether this is true). |
Whether it is 'intrinsic' is an open question. All programming languages makes bugs possible. E.g. when writing code in C or C++ that deals with buffers where an external entity supplies the data, thou shalt always protect against overflow. Not doing this does not only fail to ensure the 'true' or 'secure' function of the program, it is grossly stupid and incompetent. Programmers that are worth their salt will simply not let this happen by employing best practices and testing.
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not postulating that criminals can't somehow wreak havoc with RFID tags.
DJ
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:40 am Post subject:
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| Wait a minute - So the government's NOT keeping pennies in circulation to get your fingerprints on file? |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:53 am Post subject:
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| opg wrote: | | Wait a minute - So the government's NOT keeping pennies in circulation to get your fingerprints on file? |
Not really. That is dull old tech.
Halliburton Corp, the Crusaders of One True Junta, is using secret hidden chips in these things to register your fingerprints:
Waddyaknow, your midi keyboard is probably uploading our fingerprints to black choppers as we speak.
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:12 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | opg wrote: | | Wait a minute - So the government's NOT keeping pennies in circulation to get your fingerprints on file? |
Not really. That is dull old tech.
Halliburton Corp, the Crusaders of One True Junta, is using secret hidden chips in these things to register your fingerprints:
Waddyaknow, your midi keyboard is probably uploading our fingerprints to black choppers as we speak. |
I had never realized that. Now I can trash my electronic piano, as well as my laptop, LOOK:
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:02 am Post subject:
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THAT'S IT!!!
I'm getting my fingerprints burned off like a normal person! |
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brinxmat
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 262
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:19 am Post subject:
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That bottle of cheap brandy you bought at vinmonopolet ...
QFree chip...
Pack of noxious minced beef...
They're watching you ... and they know you go shopping.
I log everyone I know's movements via the mobile 'phone network, that's accurate enough for me.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:20 am Post subject:
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| opg wrote: | THAT'S IT!!!
I'm getting my fingerprints burned off like a normal person! |
Ahh.. that can be arranged.
Check your email. You will soon have nice offers for fingerprint removal, really big boobies and a huge dick, a 747 full of Rolex watches ( it can be crashed into your house- special offer on that one this week ), drugs, junkbonds and a property on Mars. Uh.. and I forgot the organ donor stuff.. I always forget that one. Whatever sent to you from good old reliable .ru is hot.
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opg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:34 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
Ahh.. that can be arranged.
Check your email. You will soon have nice offers for fingerprint removal, really big boobies and a huge dick, a 747 full of Rolex watches ( it can be crashed into your house- special offer on that one this week ), drugs, junkbonds and a property on Mars. Uh.. and I forgot the organ donor stuff.. I always forget that one. Whatever sent to you from good old reliable .ru is hot. |
Luckily I can afford these purchases because I apparently just won a lottery in another country and just need to claim my prize!  |
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elektro80
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject:
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| Fozzie wrote: |
Read Brinxmat's link to www.rfidvirus.org. It's not absurd, it has been done and published. |
Read it, load of rubbish.
None of the so called vulnerabilities are linked to the RFID technology specifically. All of those lame points could apply to any badly written system using say, 2D barcode technology, or even code128.
That site is just a waste of web space. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
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Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject:
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| g2ian wrote: | | That site is just a waste of web space. |
Glad to see I'm not the only one to question the significance or validity of that paper. I'm puzzled as to how it won a "Best Paper Award" Perhaps it says more about the competition.
DJ
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blue hell
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject:
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When you are woriied about the privacy aspects of RFID tags: stop using your cell phone, stop using your credit card - tracking persons with these is real and happening now.
The virus talk with regards to supermarket RFID tags is nonsense, those are read only tags having a fixed ID code only - and even those are too expensive still to be widely used. |
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blue hell
Former site admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24864
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject:
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| g2ian wrote: |
That site is just a waste of web space. |
I agree.
edit : all aspects of various RFID systems are dumped on a heap and then the ones to make a nice horror story are picked out, ignoring the preventive measures implemented and ignoring the actual use made of the tags. |
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject:
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| Well, those are clear opinions . I guess it's the potential of unnoticable use or misuse of these systems (and the novelty aspect) that's is scary for the masses (including me in this case). |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject:
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The problem is not technology. The real problem is ideology.
As for the RFID virus scare, this is simply just another new age scam. I am waiting for someone to explain the entanglement concept to Sr. Bush Jr. He will envision quantum terrorists. Oh my..
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Kassen
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